Robbing hasnt changed

[Murzim]

The problem:
Traps is not perfect. Too much luck involved. When you state traps is perfect you definately take the side of a specific group of players. Players are not sure that traps are not used as a tool to balance the game and stop specific robberies.

Potential Solution:
Stop saying traps is perfect, we got it. Give us more details about how traps work, as you do with safe, detection, alert and recognition. IN other words, we'd like an indicator/score for traps just like the rest parts of robbing. As i said before, we need it in order to improve ourselves.

Conclusion:
This is what most players of Nightmare believe. When you drive out of the game players like Raizin this is a problem. If not for you, then for our gang.

This has been brought before and I responded that the score generated for traps is not at all understandable. To support what I am saying, I will post some of trap scores here:

a(P):0.6 b(F):0.15 c(C):0 Penalties:failure Trap to Failure:failure Captivity:failure
a(P):0.9 b(F):0.3 c(C):0.15 Penalties:failure Trap to Failure:success Captivity:failure (Lawliet vs Yotbol)
a(P):0 b(F):0 c(C):0 Penalties:failure Trap to Failure:failure Captivity:failure
a(P):0.7 b(F):0.2 c(C):0.05 Penalties:success Trap to Failure:failure Captivity:failure (Garfield vs Ramirez7)
a(P):0.4 b(F):0.05 c(C):0 Penalties:failure Trap to Failure:failure Captivity:failure (Ramirez7 vs Kontpith)

These are some of the latest roberries made. I only posted names where the attacker was caught by the recognization systems.

Traps is not perfect. Too much luck involved. When you state traps is perfect you definately take the side of a specific group of players. Players are not sure that traps are not used as a tool to balance the game and stop specific robberies.

Now please answer my questions:
-Why you claim that I definitely take the side of a specific group of players when I say traps are perfect ? Which group you mean ?
-Which players are not sure that traps are not used as a tool to balance the game and stop specific robberies ?
-What exactly do you mean by this statement ? Are you accusing me of favoritism or bad administrating ? Because this is what I understand.

Please clear your position.

Thank you

[Lawliet]

Acer:
I know exactly why Raizin quit.

As for your question: Raizin will go to Hell for saying that. Rest of us will go to Heaven. Is this response quite adult justifyable for u?

Now, can you stick to the topic?

[Foititis]

Give us more details about how traps work

Answer

The helpdesk gives all the info I want the playerbase to know

This is what most players of Nightmare believe.

I wanna see someone alse then tarin postin about that...

When you drive out of the game players like Raizin this is a problem. If not for you, then for our gang.

None forced raizin out of the game.This is for sure.The fact is that he had made his decission earlier this set and just waitin for the right time.
He didnt like the way the traps worked but Murzim find the way perfect so it was the end of raizin cause he couldnt have it hes own way or just didnt liked
it we cant be all happy.We cant rob with 100% success every day.Thats just impossible

But tryin to get advantage of his gangm8 leaving is just sad...
Do not ry to influence gameplay by cashing in in on anothers downfall

[Lawliet]

Revenger: Response to your questions:
By the definition group of ppl i mean the defenders of the game (opposite of thieves).

The traps could be used as a tool that would automatically prevent some defenders to be robbed more than once per day. for example, if yotbol was already robbed before i attack him, traps should be automatically enforced to prevent me for robbing him. This is nothing more but my personal assumption.

Lastly, i dont accuse anyone for anything. I am just disappointed that an excellent player has stopped playing.

[acer]

i respect you lawliet for seeing what was said was very very wrong


as for the rest of tonights happenings
well thats another story

[Murzim]

Revenger: Response to your questions:
By the definition group of ppl i mean the defenders of the game (opposite of thieves).

The traps could be used as a tool that would automatically prevent some defenders to be robbed more than once per day. for example, if yotbol was already robbed before i attack him, traps should be automatically enforced to prevent me for robbing him. This is nothing more but my personal assumption.

Lastly, i dont accuse anyone for anything. I am just disappointed that an excellent player has stopped playing.

Thank you for clearing up your statement.

Discussing traps, the initial planning of roberries do not link rob attempts. Meaning that 2 rob attempts will not make 3rd attempt less likely to happen. This is to maintain fairness between non-coordinated attacks.

Lets now think of the perfect simulation of robbing another player in this game. Remember, we want a simulator, meaning a piece of code that will try to keep as close to realism it can. Current rob another player feature was made keeping this in mind. Forthcoming chances will boost realism a bit more while it will boost a lot tactics.

I would be open to more completed solutions rather than just change this or that. I do not want roberries to be 100% success like crimes. I believe that they should include strategy + luck. Taking all the above in mind, I created the present robbing feature.

You do not like it ? You want to see this improved ? This goes for everyone. I am hearing. But you need to take in mind the above rough description.

[acer]

personally

i think it should remain the same

what is the point of having everyting perfectly mapable ?

the one remaining pure luck element of robbery is the traps it gives a chance of failure

we have all seen what happens when a few people can perfect one element of game !

at least whilst robbery reamains *slightly* to chance it allows for others to develope in other aspects of game


where is the fun in something that can always be executed to perfection ?

[Metus]

Revenger: Response to your questions:
Lastly, i dont accuse anyone for anything. I am just disappointed that an excellent player has stopped playing.

You and I rarely agree on anything but this is one time when I am with you.

Metus

[Metus]

My opinion of robbing in general is that it should be a game of strategy, not of luck. I don't want to discount luck entirely, but it should not play a great part. On the flip side, I think that robbing should be more difficult than it is currently.

At the present, you have at most four specialties which can be brought to bear in a robbery attempt. There are five specialties which directly affect the scores generated in a robbery attempt; locks, explosives, stealth, computers, and acrobatics. It could be argued that four additional specialties have some indirect effect on some portion of the rob attempt; weapons, martial arts, organization, and persuasion. However, this indirect effect is not measureable in any way.

My biggest problem with robbing is that any one person can bring four out of five main specialties required for robbing against a target. And if you consider that locks and explosives really overlap to a certain degree that means that every robber out there has a realistic chance of knocking over just about any defensive setup.

IMHO, this should change. The indirect effects of the other specialties should be strengthened, making them more important to overall success. By doing this you introduce much more stategy into building clearly different robbers within the same gang. Instead of having basically five different types of robbers, you would have as many as one hundred twenty-six. In effect, a person with acrobatics, locks, explosives would be very good against someone who had a safe oriented defensive setup but would likely fail against someone with a detection oriented defensive setup. This would mean that robbers would have to pick targets that were more of a fit to their specialties and coordinate with other robbers who were quite dissimilar in build to take down specific targets.

Having a whole gang full of people who intend to be robbers but who all have explosives and organization would be pure folly. Variety of build would be the only way to reliably take down big scores.

Metus

[Balamut]

Wow nice thread eveyrone...
I shall add my two bits on the basis that when it comes to player robbing I have become something of an expert.

1. Trial & error: You will try you will fail .. you will change settings, focus you will fail again ... you will retrain develop different specialties... yet you will fail again until one day you may succeed ... only to fail the next one which will leave you wondering wtf is going on.
Robbing is about patience percistance, luck (not in the way discussed in the thread). More in the area of the defensive setup against your own ability. It wont give assured revenues. And the same things that worked yesterday will not work tomorrow. Learn to live with it. Most of us have. In the process after sets of trial and error you may understand the basics (basic understanding of what went wrong opening the path to enlighment for what needs to be done in order to get it right if this is at all possible). Do not ask for this knowledge to be offered to you. Get it. If you dont want to just do your 1.666th bank job --> Assured revenues small risk of wasting turns.

2. Things are not great with player robbing. Why? Well its not because you may fail against level 10 defenses. It is because you will succeed in 7 rob attempts in one day against lvl 8 (even 9) sometimes. It is because defenses are useless up to level 8 against any thought after robbing setup. It is because a level 10 should have the same difficulties robbing defenses 5 (if not more) as level 20 defenses 10. It is because the increase in difficulty is not done gradualy. The only defense one can hope for at lower levels (against other robbers)is that they do not have enough money to scout for items and the huge unreliability of choosing "robe the most expensive item you can find feature" which 99 out of 100 times renders a meatball or some id. Makes you wonder why anyone should buy level 1 -8 defenses ... pointless realy until he can afford level 9 upwards.

3. Most of you want a recipe some notes like you have with all the rest of the crimes... an ensured path to post for your friends in the forums of your gangs in order to dominate all aspects of the game. currently (as far as I am aware) recipies exist for crimes ... betting ... horse racing ....everything (well not everything). The art of robbing is not mappable. Too bad! Learn to live with it. Trial & error and common sense may give you some understanding. But then there is always the other guy .. the defender .. and he makes decisions as well .. he changes the setup and varries his strategy ... how can one map that into a little guideline book to post in the forum? You cant. Period.

4. Traps ... yes unpredictable. but then again you can choose not to face the traps. or take your chanches with them. That in itself is a setup decision. An experienced robber knows which one under what conditions would give him marginally better than 50-50 chanches. But thats the most you can hope for.

Finally the worst thing Rev could do to his game is give you people the ability and inside info to map robbing as well. He has done that with crimes in the past (justifiable in the sense that success is the key to increasing involvement and interest in the game) but maybe also facilitated a breed of players that just expect everything handed to them on a silver plate. That would not be too bad in itself. But it is, since this breed of players have self prounced themselves kings of the game, i am the best (simply), brag and harass noobs gangbang challengers verbally and in game and just because they are better organised than the rest of the frelancers they dominate and opress everybody else succeeding in the only rob attempt they can master. Robbing others of the pleasure of playing. Player robbing is the last stand. Should that fall there is no game left....

As for raizin leaving.. Many an experienced player have left or more so have been kicked and banned. Many a name come to mind. Nobody cared then sinse they where not part of the "elite few".
raizing left, good for him its his grown up decision. he is moving on .. well done. Why should this affect the game he does not play anymore. it should not. Bye bye have a nice life. Anybody using this as an argument for change should concider quiting themselves. And if anything they do not care for raiz.

Its how it is people come and go. Our lives cross for a short period here and there and then we go our separate ways again. Learn to deal with it .... its not good or bad ... its how it is ... and as you get older it becomes worse.

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Eimai o Balamut kai molis teleiosa.